copyright issues

[jasong]

I haven't been back in awhile, and with the state of my job search and Christmas coming up: I've decided to try to get my dad to buy me a DivX recorder for Christmas.  Off-topic: I'm also going to make an ass of myself by begging people to accept very belated Christmas presents.[I know that makes me look like a jerk. I screwed up financially, what else can I say?  :(  ]

Anyway, I've got a slight problem.  Actually, whether or not it's a problem or an annoyance depends on my decision making skills and copyright law.  Here's the thing:

There is a website.  I'm not going to post it because I forget what the user agreement here says, but one of the things you can do is exchange television shows over the Internet.  The problem is that I don't know how the "VCR" laws apply in this case.  Could whether or not I'm breaking the law break down to something as simple as whether or  not I have to fast-forward through an Arby's commercial to see the rest of Family Guy?

I don't know how to break it down into technical terms, so I'm not sure how to ask the question.  If you understand what I'm getting at in the above paragraph, maybe you can rephrase the question.

[Edited on 13/12/2004 by jasong]

[Edited on 8/1/2005 by jasong]

[rampy]

Sorry to hear about your financial difficulties... It's hare enough this time of year, some fiscal stress doesn't help.

I'd appreciate keeping the discussion on the up and up =)  No need to mention the site, although I'm sure it's only a google away.   Unless you are talking about something like tvtorrent.net

But feel free to discuss fair use and effects of copyright laws and the type of issues surrounding what you can and can't do with content legally (or what you should be able to do, but aren't supposed to i.e. DMCA and backing up DVD's for example)

Fair use, is the provision of copyright law I think you are asking about.   Can you spell out how the site works?

FWIW, I'm reasonably sure whether or not it's "ok" to do what you are alluding to has little to nothing to do with whether the ads are in place or not.

Although I dont' have the clear cut answer, it is clear that the copyright/IP laws of yesterday have trouble coping with the digital medium of today.  Toss in the errosion of the fair use tenants to serve the RIAA/MPAA lobbied bills...  and it's easy to get confused.

one law says I can back up my video files, but I can't do that on a DVD without circumenting the copy protection which would hypothetically put me in violation of the DMCA.  Anti-Piracy measures usually end up hurting the average consumer, and not hindering the "real"  pirates.

There is a bit of a tangiental  leap from "I taped ER and let a friend borrow the VHS tape" to "postiing CSI on usenet, bittorrent, other p2p"  *shrug* it's pretty murky, eh?

rampy

[smokeyalien]

Here is what you want to know.  Technically it is legal for you to posses a copy of a TV program for non-commercial use as long as you paid for the medium that supplied it.  If you currently receive the channel that played this program either over the air or through cable or satellite then it is legal for you to posses, but not reproduce (i.e. mass copy).  The DMCA blocks you from fair use copying of your DVD's and VCR tapes because you have to circumvent the security built in.  This is why DVD's have CSS and VHS tapes (and most DVD players) have Macrovision.

The difference is whether you obtained the copy legally by paying for the service or if you had to circumvent something to get it.  The followup answer is that you are not allowed to mass produce this copy or use it in a commercial way.

There are a few finer points in this discussion but this is what it all boils down to.

Smokeyalien

[jasong]

Here is what you want to know.  Technically it is legal for you to posses a copy of a TV program for non-commercial use as long as you paid for the medium that supplied it.  If you currently receive the channel that played this program either over the air or through cable or satellite then it is legal for you to posses, but not reproduce (i.e. mass copy).  The DMCA blocks you from fair use copying of your DVD's and VCR tapes because you have to circumvent the security built in.  This is why DVD's have CSS and VHS tapes (and most DVD players) have Macrovision.

The difference is whether you obtained the copy legally by paying for the service or if you had to circumvent something to get it.  The followup answer is that you are not allowed to mass produce this copy or use it in a commercial way.

There are a few finer points in this discussion but this is what it all boils down to.

Smokeyalien

Okay, apparently if I get CSI and record it I have the right to keep it.  The issue I'm having trouble with is the following(using CSI as an example):

Let's say that Season 1 is in reruns somewhere and Season 2 finished up 2 hours ago.  What are the legal ramifications for downloading(or uploading) a ripped and zipped Season 1 as opposed to a recorded and zipped Season 2 with commercials edited out?  I'm not looking to make a profit, I just want to know my rights in terms of(as an example) mass-downloading CSI, or (as an example) mass-uploading my not yet collected Star Trek:The Original Series, both CSI and ST:TOS having been recorded off CBS and the SciFi channel, respectively.

I have no desire to steal revenue, but I dream of the day when I can turn to my father and say,"Dad, I'm bored, I think I'll go put on Back to the Future I without fast-forwarding and with commercials, my bank accounts a little low."  Then maybe my Dad will say,"Well, your birthdays coming up and you told me the whole movies good, so I'll spring for the no-commercial version, just use the Linux script to post a reminder to me that I promised to pay."  But if wishes were horses, horse-poop would be EVERYWHERE. :)

[smokeyalien]

I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say here.  I'm going to take a stab at it but it seems you are trying to walk into a grey bordering on dark area of the law.

IF you were to record the shows from your own source (over the air, cable, satellite, or smoke signal) then it is completely legal for you to keep and edit out commercials.  It is also legal for you to maintain this copy and post it on the internet.  Here's where it gets strange though.  You can access these files from another location for your own use but you can not provide them to a bulk audience (internet filesharing) or for monetary credit.  The reason is the person downloading the content may not have paid for a service that provided this media so the owning company has not been "paid" and this constitutes theft.

Downloading of this material is also questionable because it comes back to theft of service.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the commercials, which help offset the costs of airing this program, have been edited out.  Plus the fact that portions of the media may be banned or edited in your area must also be accounted for.

So to reiterate, it is legal to copy and store your recorded media and have it accesible to you from any location but it is illegal to provide to the community at large or sell.  It is also illegal for you download this media unless you can prove that you have already been paying for the exact same content at that time.

This knowledge comes free, and as pappy always said, advice is worth what you pay for it.  No I won't pay for your legal bills due to your ineptitude.

Smokeyalien

Now my statements are all USA centric because talking about International law will make this a severely long and convoluted argument.  Needless to say in the international arena one must also take into effect other variations on copyright law, trade sanctions, intellectual property rights, and various banned aspects of a media program.

[jasong]

The following message involves the ramblings of someone(me) that has too much time on his hands.  If you like to flame people, be advised that this message is probably a waste of your time, though you may find it mildly entertaining.

You've been warned :)
----------------------------------------------------

IF you were to record the shows from your own source (over the air, cable, satellite, or smoke signal) then it is completely legal for you to keep and edit out commercials.  It is also legal for you to maintain this copy and post it on the internet.  Here's where it gets strange though.  You can access these files from another location for your own use but you can not provide them to a bulk audience (internet filesharing) or for monetary credit.  The reason is the person downloading the content may not have paid for a service that provided this media so the owning company has not been "paid" and this constitutes theft.

I believe you, but that is a horrible way for things to work.  So, essentially, what your saying is, I can sued for downloading something even though they could make MORE money by providing it in the first place.

The thing that makes my blood really boil is that they pick and choose who they want to sue, and if it's profitable to let people break the law, they encourage it.  According to a friend of mine, ripping mp3s is illegal according to the same laws that govern DVD ripping, the labels don't say anything because they think they're better off allowing it.

Downloading of this material is also questionable because it comes back to theft of service.  This problem is compounded by the fact that the commercials, which help offset the costs of airing this program, have been edited out.  Plus the fact that portions of the media may be banned or edited in your area must also be accounted for.

An excellent reason to rethink the whole DivX thing that happened I don't know how many years back.  

[ramblemodeon]Maybe this is going to sound silly, but if CBS sent me all their shows, told me I could watch whatever I want, whenever I want, but is costs 99 cents an hour and the bill is to be paid by credit card on the first of the month, do you realize how thrilled I'd be?  I don't want to cheat people, I want to pay people to let me be lazy.  I want to be able to wake up at 2:13 in the morning, realize the latest Joan of Arcadia came out about 7 hours ago and order it from my cable provider by pressing a few buttons.  I'm a dreamer, what can I say?  [ramblemodeoff]

So to reiterate, it is legal to copy and store your recorded media and have it accesible to you from any location but it is illegal to provide to the community at large or sell.  It is also illegal for you download this media unless you can prove that you have already been paying for the exact same content at that time.

So my attempt to download all the Star Trek episodes ever off of Kazaa might be illegal, but might not be since I get the Sci-Fi channel?  I'm thinking I should find some phone numbers to call to ask about this, get my coat and calling card, and ride my bike to a pay phone.

I've got jury duty the whole first half of next year, so I might be able to ask around(carefully, of course)

This knowledge comes free, and as pappy always said, advice is worth what you pay for it.  No I won't pay for your legal bills due to your ineptitude.

Smokeyalien

Now my statements are all USA centric because talking about International law will make this a severely long and convoluted argument.  Needless to say in the international arena one must also take into effect other variations on copyright law, trade sanctions, intellectual property rights, and various banned aspects of a media program.

Well, your message made me both more confused and more determined to be careful, so...I don't know.

[smokeyalien]

Ok here's a few things that we should straighten out.

1) The reason Downloading Music is illegal is because initially it was theft of intellectual property (IP law).  This is why it is chased so much and the RIAA goes after individuals instead of websites which use the excuse radio stations get which is acting as an educational/review site.

2) The reason downloading DVD's is wrong is a) theft of Intellectual Property and b) circumventing security methods in place.  There was a kid (now an adult) in Europe who created a program called DeCSS which made it possible to run DVD's on linux.  this broke the security code locking these DVDs.  This is why they can not only sue you over theft but also over a law called the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (sic) or also known as the DMCA.  This is why movie companies can target websites as well as services.

3) The reason downloading Television is a grey zone is because it is legal to record content you are paying for under "fair use" but the content you download may not be something you are paying for.  The reason Television networks haven't gone after filesharers is because Tivo has made more of a dent in their Nielsen ratings than filesharing has.  Nielsen Ratings by the way are how networks are ranked and therefore how much they can charge for commercial air time.  The otherproblems related to sharing TV files is that the content in one area may have been edited to comply with state or local laws in another area.  This makes the content illegal if you are watching it in one of these areas.

Now are you kind of seeing what is going on with the regard to legal issues?  It is still illegal to download television shows that have had the commercials edited out or to download content that you are not paying for.

As for on demand television, with the new fiber rollout happening in some cities the telephone company is goign to start offering TV over internet in 2005.

Smokeyalien

[Anonymous]

Llet me say this might be sort of a rant so be prepared and skip if it might insight a flame war.  I have no intention of flaming anyone or startinng a flame war.

First:  If the show was broadcast 'free to air', without encryption of any kind, and you own a TV set, you have paid for the 'service'.  The copyright owner has been paid for the right to distribute the show to everyone in this geographical coverage area, provided they own the necessary reception equipmen,t by the broadcaster.  

By law, a radio signal has no owner and any citizen of the US has the right to receive and apply any signal processing necessary to use any signal receivable by him/her for personal use.  This does not include distribution.  You become the broadcaster in this case.  This does not include any paid public performances of what is received.  You are the violating the copyright by not reimbursing the owner of the 'IP' for the performance.

Technically, inviting a group of friends over to watch a PPV boxing/football/baseball/etc event is probably a violation as well since only the 'owner' of the PPV connection has paid for the service.  Anyone other than the owner of the connection is probably stealing the 'service'.

In all practicality, once something has been broadcast in a Free to Air environment, it should be assumed that this work is now in the public domain since distribution to everyone has been contractually accepted by the owner and compensated by the broadcaster on your behalf.

If anyone claimes to own a transmission, they are on shaky ground since the have no control over their "property" and if it is freely given to you, you have the right to use it in any way you see fit.  You also have the right to demand that they remove their "property" from your property.  To put your property one someone else's is a violation of several US codes and most state trespassing laws.  You, as the owner of a piece of property, have the right to full use and control of that property.  This includes airspace up to an altitude of 500 feet.  If they 'own' a signal that is infringing your property, you have the right to demand removal of their property from yours in a reasonable amount of time to be determined by you, since you own the property, or to use their property as your own until such time as they see fit to comply with your right to request their removal of their 'property' from yours.
They forfeit any right to their 'property' if it is left upon yours after your request for its removal.

In many cases, the signals (property) to which you are being exposed have been known to cause health problems, risks, or are under investigation for same.  You might have recourse against them for damaging your health with their 'property'.  I am sure they will disclaim any ownership of any radio signal which they might generate very quickly under threat of legal procedings.  If they own the signal, they have full use and control of it.  If they don't have control of it, they can't legally own it in the US.  You have the right to legally receive and process it in any way desired for personal use.

The content of a DVD is legal to copy for fair use...your personal use providing you aren't using the original and a copy at the same time.  It is not legal to copy for any kind of distribution or performance.  You paid for the disk and the content of the disk and its unfettered fair use by you.  Nothing else.  You are paying the copyright owner for your right to use it.  It is probably technically illegal to show the content to another family member or friend at your residence since they have not paid for the use of the content.

As far as local 'obscenity' laws go, obscenity, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder and no one has the right to dictate to you what you consider obscene.  There is no such thing as an obscenity law.  It is a violation of your rights if you are in the US.  'Obscenity' laws are what is typically used to exert undue pressure on the publisher of a legally constitutionally protected work to change its content in exchange for performance rights in the area.  This is racketeering and should be prosecuted under the US RICO laws.  It is also a violation of several other US Codes regarding the infringing of the rights of another and also, since more than one person is involved, is racketeering under RICO.

The 'broadcast flag' for HDTV is illegal.  It restricts your right to fair use of the content which has been compensated to the owner of the work by the broadcaster on your behalf.  See RICO, legal cases involving fair use including the Sony case which defined fair use.

In short, if broadcast "free to air", the right to public-wide distribution has been contractually accepted and compensated by the broadcaster on your behalf.  The copyright owner has agreed to distribution to every member of the public in exchange for this compensation.  The work is now in the public domain.

In the US, you can refuse to buy a DVD with protection included.  Just don't buy it.  Wait for free to air distribution then record it.  Your right to fair use has been compensated to the copyright owner at that point.

Refuse to buy a music CD with any sort of copy protection included.  It is a defective product and does not conform to the internationally accepted specifications for an audio cd.  Since the music has been broadcast, it is in the public domain.  Compensation has been made by the broadcaster for your use of the work.  Record and use it.  If you were unfortunate enough to get one of these defective CD's, file a defective product complaint with the FTC, demand from the publisher that they provide a fully standards compliant version since you paid for a fully functional, standards compliant audio CD.

When broadcast flag comes into use in July, 2005, refuse to watch any 'flagged' program.  The ratings will show our displeasure with their subjugation of our right to fair use.  The broadcast flag has already been defeated.  Refuse to buy a receiver that can't be modified to ignore this flag.  Use computer receivers to receive that which has been freely given and is now in the public domain.  Strip the flag, record, redistribute copyrighted but now in the public domain, due to free public distribution, works.

These are the opinions of someone who feels that the laws should be followed.  Racketeering should be prosecuted.  Restrictions of rights guaranteed under our constitution should not be tolderated and should be prosecuted.  Violation of a person's property should not be tolerated and should be prosecuted.  Many of the comments have legal merit, I have been told.  Other comments are mine.  I will not be responsible for any action of any type on any statement made within this document.

[smokeyalien]

You know thats a really cute idea but in all seriousness it doesn't work.  If you look at some of these TV collection websites then you will notice a predominance of 2 types of shows.   Those that were recorded because they were "free to air" at the time or those involving institutes of higher learning such as history channel, discovery channel, and PBS.  Now the reason for the learning programs is that there is less likely to be a hassle for distributing this content.  Free to air shows (NBC, ABC, etc.) are also something that can technically be distributed IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM in the areas that they were broadcast.  The problem with filesharing is if you trade these files to another country where the program has not yet aired and thus there is possible compensation lost.

As for making copies of DVD's, it is illegal because you must circumvent the security protection.  If you make an exact duplicate without touching the security lock then you are fine if you keep it for fair use only.  If you distribute the movie or strip off the protection then you have just broken laws.  By the way, not all of us want to wait 6 years for a movie to come to free to air television.

As for your rant I am guessing you are still in college and truly believe you can change the world by not paying for your stolen cable.  This is the only thing I can think of as to why you actually believe the system can be changed in great ways for the better.  Best of luck to ya.

Smokeyalien

[jasong]

I don't know whether the "Anonymous" poster is right or not.  I'm not going to go into it, because what I know about the government breaking laws doesn't have anything to do with broadcasting, but I have proven to myself that they break the law in major ways.

As far as DVD encryption, Digital Rights Management, and similar things, it is simply a bunch of greedy(and foolish) capitalists trying to make a buck.  What they don't seem to realize is that although many people in the US don't claim to be Christian, the general morality of the populace is firmly based in Christian morality, with a little bit of capitalism giving it flavor.  If you give people access in the right way, and charge the right amount, while actively educating people on and enforcing the law, you will get a society that's far superior to what we have now in terms of content availability.

You want free TV of any episode, of any show, whenever you want it?  Fine, just allocate a portion of your media playing device to downloaded commercials so they can be added dynamically to whatever you watch, thereby paying the fee.  And if they send you a survey that could supply them with information to target you, you could pay for your shows with a targeted and reduced amount of commercials.

That's what would happen if the ultrarich capitalists truly cared about their customers.

[jasong]

Tivo tried to work several things out to avoid being forced to remove the commercial skip feature but none of them worked because the media companies and the users didn't like it.

Let me know when you can get a fortune 500 or even a fortune 1000 company to change it's mind.  I'd like to see that.

Smokeyalien

I think we agree with each other, it's just the other side of the same coin. :)