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Author Topic: High end PVR - what is it capable of?  (Read 1479 times)
Anonymous
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« on: March 31, 2005, 01:57:18 AM »

I want to add a high end HD PVR to my current gaming computer.  I’ve been reading the threads, but I’m still confused.  I’d like some feed back on if what I’m planning will achieve my HD PVR wants.  I’m looking to build a high quality system with the flowing functions:

1) record OTA TV and HDTV (ie big NASCAR fan) and be able to time shift, copy the file to usb hard drive, burn to DVD or a CD-RW video format for watching at my dads.
2) copy my VCR tape collection to my computer to relegate all thoughts bulky tapes to boxes in the basement
3) My kids are notorious for scratching DVD’s.  I’d like to store my DVD collection on the computer hard drive and keep original DVD in its case. (personal use only).  Not sure if the best way is with software directly on the computer using the computers DVD player, or to record the signal out of my home entertainment DVD player.
4) (for future consideration, as no cable available here yet). Record cable HDTV, the same as OTA TV.

I’m thinking about using a pcHDTV HD-3000 tuner card and Linux with Mythtv.  I’d prefer to use Windows, but from what I understand, windows will not do what I’m looking for (ie no HD TV tuner card for windows)

How will the new broadcast flag affect what can and can not be done with a PVR?

Reference of my computer specs:
-Nvidia Geforce 6600 PCIe (with HDTV out via S-video)
-P4 Extreme 3.4Ghz
-1GB DDR2 memory
-Motherboard with 7.1 sound (optical), 2 firewire ports
-74GB SATA (raid 0) raptor hard drives for OS
-480GB (raid 5) for storage (only supported via XP pro)
-160GB (raid 0) for storage (available to all OS)
-Water cooled with radiant cooling (no cooler fans) for silent computer.
-3 OS (win 98 for older games, XP pro for new games, and now Linux for HD PVR)

Reference on the rest of my home entertainment:
-Cable is not available in my area, but I’d like to figure in that we may get cable out here sometime in the future, or that I might hook up the satellite dish (the previous home owner left the dish, but I have no interest right now in purchasing a satellite subscription).
-HDTV (DVD player uses component video, soon to be removed VCR uses s-video)
-6.1 surround sound (all sound is via optical link)

My main goal is to cofirm if my expectations are in line with what technology is currently capable of doing.  Thank you for reading and helping me out.  :)
 Kent
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rampy
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2005, 10:49:55 AM »

Quote

1) record OTA TV and HDTV (ie big NASCAR fan) and be able to time shift, copy the file to usb hard drive, burn to DVD or a CD-RW video format for watching at my dads.

So far so good...  make sure you're within the DTV broadcast range of your local affiliates...
Quote

2) copy my VCR tape collection to my computer to relegate all thoughts bulky tapes to boxes in the basement


sounds good again...

Quote

3) My kids are notorious for scratching DVD’s.  I’d like to store my DVD collection on the computer hard drive and keep original DVD in its case. (personal use only).  Not sure if the best way is with software directly on the computer using the computers DVD player, or to record the signal out of my home entertainment DVD player.

There's a whole cottage industry for ripping DVD's to your local drive (even stripping out uneeded extras like french language tracks to save some space) =) If i remember I'll dig up a link or two.. i think doom9.org is one spot with ripping guides.

Quote

4) (for future consideration, as no cable available here yet). Record cable HDTV, the same as OTA TV.

*schrreeeeeech* this is a tougher nut to crack, sadly. As of right now your DIY HDTV PVR options are:
1. OTA HDTV via HDTV card
2. HDTV via cable using unencrypted QAM transmission (sorry for the alphabet soup I don't know how to express that differently)... basically there's a card or two that does (or will) accept the same encoding/format SOME cable providers use... and SOME cable providers leave the broadcast HDTV channels unencrypted... (it's a bit of a dice roll)
3.  pull hdtv content over firewire from your cable box  (this is starting to get more common/use... but it too depends on certain settings by the cable company and presence of an unencumbered firewire port)

Quote

I’m thinking about using a pcHDTV HD-3000 tuner card and Linux with Mythtv.  I’d prefer to use Windows, but from what I understand, windows will not do what I’m looking for (ie no HD TV tuner card for windows)

There are HDTV tuner cards for windows... ATI HDTV wonder, Dvico (?) fusion III card... etc...  It's the 3rd party PVR software support that's been sketchy IMHO.  You almost get rail roaded into using the default software, or some sort of jury rig, or full blown windows XP MCE 2005...
Quote

How will the new broadcast flag affect what can and can not be done with a PVR?

I'm no lawyer...  but cards manufactured after july05 will need to honor the broadcast flag It effects digital TV only, and can/will determine what you can and can't do with the content. It really can have a far reaching effect (just like this current groskter vs mgm case) as far as fair use rights and certain activities we take for granted now... the eff.org pages really do a better job summing this stuff up. I haven't had enough coffee to do it justice...
Quote

Reference of my computer specs:
-Nvidia Geforce 6600 PCIe (with HDTV out via S-video)

Note: you can't really do HDTV via s-video.. I think you mean you have svideo out and DVI out available on that card for HDTV...
Quote

-3 OS (win 98 for older games, XP pro for new games, and now Linux for HD PVR)

wow that sounds pretty awesome... the one thing though is it might get annoying to flip bewteen different operating systems like that, especially if you miss recording "american idol" because someone was booted into another OS playing counterstrike (or what have you)...

You might want to think through what you want to accomplish... or consider other approaches (like separating the recording/DVD storage box into a server and streaming content to a client)

I'm no silent cooling expert... but even with all that water cooling i gotta think all those drives are gonna be pretty loud even if you do some muffling/mod work.

Although I think linux is great, you don't necessarily HAVE to have your HD in linux as noted above...  although that's one way to go.

My other thought is to maybe get the w98 games working in XP, or get a virtual PC software to create an "instance" of a windows98 install... makes much more sense, especially on a bear of machine like yours (than rebooting) for which few games don't play nice in XP.
 

Quote

Reference on the rest of my home entertainment:
-Cable is not available in my area, but I’d like to figure in that we may get cable out here sometime in the future, or that I might hook up the satellite dish (the previous home owner left the dish, but I have no interest right now in purchasing a satellite subscription).
-HDTV (DVD player uses component video, soon to be removed VCR uses s-video)
-6.1 surround sound (all sound is via optical link)

My main goal is to cofirm if my expectations are in line with what technology is currently capable of doing.  Thank you for reading and helping me out.  :)
 Kent
 


For the most part you've got a decent sense/expectation... is that hte machine you are going to build or the one you already have?

rampy
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Anonymous
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2005, 02:18:16 AM »

Hello, this is Kent.

Rampy, thanks for your great reply.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. HDTV via cable using unencrypted QAM transmission (sorry for the alphabet soup I don't know how to express that differently)... basically there's a card or two that does (or will) accept the same encoding/format SOME cable providers use... and SOME cable providers leave the broadcast HDTV channels unencrypted... (it's a bit of a dice roll).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand the encryption of the cable signal to the cable box, but is the output from a cable box still encryption?   I thought it is all non-encrypted analog, ie A) composite video on coax B) s-video Y/C  C) Y-Pb-Pr Component Video signal.  Isn't there a way to grab this signal and record it on a PVR?  

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: you can't really do HDTV via s-video..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is HDTV?  Is HDTV only available in Y-Pb-Pr Component?  I though HDTV was just a higher resolution display and HD could be transmitted via coax, s-video and component.  If HDTV is only Y-Pb-Pr Component, then yes I understand the problems with data rate and that no capture card is capable of "grabbing" this signal.  

If HD is only Y-Pb-Pr Component, it shakes my entire foundation on the need for HD recording...perhaps I do not really need record cable in HD.... just record in standard definition and still have a really good picture on my HDTV.  (if no HD, then too bad TiVO can not share files on a LAN)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the one thing though is it might get annoying to flip bewteen different operating systems like that, especially if you miss recording "american idol" because someone was booted into another OS playing counterstrike (or what have you)...

You might want to think through what you want to accomplish... or consider other approaches (like separating the recording/DVD storage box into a server and streaming content to a client)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did not consider the need to record while in a different OS.  If XP MCE 2005 is any good and will sit in the background while I'm gaming, then this may work.  If not a good idea, then I'll build a dedicated computer to interface with the Home Theater and stick it on my home network.  Looks like some of the tuner cards do most of the encoding, so perhaps a lower spec machine will be good.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the 3rd party PVR software support that's been sketchy IMHO. You almost get rail roaded into using the default software, or some sort of jury rig, or full blown windows XP MCE 2005...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have a link to a good thread on PVR software?

quote:
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My other thought is to maybe get the w98 games working in XP, or get a virtual PC software
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, Virtual PC has basically no support for USB (other than mouse).  I learned the hard way on this one..lol.  All of my game controllers are USB and unusable with MS Virtual PC.

My new gaming PC is 80% complete, but it is not that much different than my 6 month old AMD gaming computer.  The new computer is just more focused on being quiet.  BTY, new hard drives are pretty quiet, although I've not spooled up the raptors yet.  ;)

Thanks, Kent
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rampy
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2005, 11:08:52 PM »

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. HDTV via cable using unencrypted QAM transmission (sorry for the alphabet soup I don't know how to express that differently)... basically there's a card or two that does (or will) accept the same encoding/format SOME cable providers use... and SOME cable providers leave the broadcast HDTV channels unencrypted... (it's a bit of a dice roll).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand the encryption of the cable signal to the cable box, but is the output from a cable box still encryption?   I thought it is all non-encrypted analog, ie A) composite video on coax B) s-video Y/C  C) Y-Pb-Pr Component Video signal.  Isn't there a way to grab this signal and record it on a PVR?  

Well, an HDTV cable box will most likely have component/DVI/HDMI (soon?) output... however there isn't a good consumer level/viable/affordable way to PVR to PC hidef resolution signals...

You can't get hidef resolution through coax/svideo after the cable box...  the svideo from the cable box will be "down rezed/interlaced" for standard TV viewing (480i) I presume the same for "analog" coax...


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: you can't really do HDTV via s-video..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is HDTV?  Is HDTV only available in Y-Pb-Pr Component?  I though HDTV was just a higher resolution display and HD could be transmitted via coax, s-video and component.  If HDTV is only Y-Pb-Pr Component, then yes I understand the problems with data rate and that no capture card is capable of "grabbing" this signal.  

If HD is only Y-Pb-Pr Component, it shakes my entire foundation on the need for HD recording...perhaps I do not really need record cable in HD.... just record in standard definition and still have a really good picture on my HDTV.  (if no HD, then too bad TiVO can not share files on a LAN)

Well technically (and I maybe speaking over my head here) resolutions of 720p or 1080i are considered Hidef, 480p is considered extended defnition...

You can get HDTV via Component (I mix up which component standard is which), DVI, VGA, HDMI.

I'm reasonably sure my assumptions/understandings are correct but encourage you to double check me... (or get other byopvr's opinions)

HDTV in general is very confusing... overlapping standards, different connections types.... source material of different resolution...  

Quote

I did not consider the need to record while in a different OS.  If XP MCE 2005 is any good and will sit in the background while I'm gaming, then this may work.  If not a good idea, then I'll build a dedicated computer to interface with the Home Theater and stick it on my home network.  Looks like some of the tuner cards do most of the encoding, so perhaps a lower spec machine will be good.


I don't have a definitive answer here, but I think it's good your thinking about some different approaches to figure out which one will work best for you.

Quote

Have a link to a good thread on PVR software?

eh... not so much, especially if talking about software taht supports HDTV cards well... (feel free to start a new thread on the topic though!) If you decide to go with standard analog cable (not HDTV source material although you can still output to component if you want) a lot of opportunities open up on the software front... we've got a link section that has most of the options listed...

In no order: There's MCE2005, SageTV, BeyondTV, GBPVR (Free), Meedio as the big guns or at least most frequently discussed here.   But if you want to do OTA HDTV it narrows your options to MCE2005 and say an ATI HDTV wonder and stuff...

Quote

No, Virtual PC has basically no support for USB (other than mouse).  I learned the hard way on this one..lol.  All of my game controllers are USB and unusable with MS Virtual PC.

My new gaming PC is 80% complete, but it is not that much different than my 6 month old AMD gaming computer.  The new computer is just more focused on being quiet.  BTY, new hard drives are pretty quiet, although I've not spooled up the raptors yet.  ;)

Thanks, Kent
 

ah... I didn't know that... it seemed like a good idea when I thought of it...  there might be other "virtual PC" esque software that's worth looking into, but seems like you've already been down that road =)

I hope that helps sorta clarify a little or at least give you a sense of the current state of where all this stuff is.  The HDTV source material is really the hardest nut to crack, but it sounds like you want to do Over the Air stuff so that should be cool. Although you might need to figure out your output situation (svideo vs component and whether i'm full of baloney or not)

rampy
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