Road Kill on Convergence Highway: 3 Months with MCE 2005

[rampy]

Guest curmudgeon, I mean columnist, Duke Weber get's on at the wrong off ramp with his Road Kill on the Convergence Highway: 3 Months With Windows MCE 2005 article. 

It's a little bit more commentary and cautionary tale than strict HowTO, (how not to?)... but at the least is a very entertaining read!

Please post your comments, questions, or corrections below! 

Personally I think we should all chip in and send Duke a copy of SageTV or BeyondTV to see if he has a better experience    I also want to thank Duke for sharing the submission with byopvr and byopvr community!

rampy

[mlbdude]

Well, MCE is the easiest to setup and use so BTV or Sage will just make things worse for this poor fellow .  I have to admit most of this users problems are pretty lame, things that most experienced users in this hobby have worked past many moons ago.  That begs a good question though - How does a new user obtain that information without having to learn it all over again?  I think that is a real benefit of the purchased MCE machine.  However, you still need to be a little more aware of how a PC works (video output, decoders, etc.) before I would ever recommend anyone getting into the hobby.  You have to walk in prepared to have to learn and work at a few things.

[Duke W]

Some PVR applications came with the hardware, they looked as good at MCE on computer screens. The was no "10 foot interface" with the remote control. I have no doubt I could find one that was better is some ways than MCE.

But once the thing was installed in a low demand environment (27" TV in the bedroom) it was fine. There are still artifacts in the picture, but much less objectionable that they were on a big screen. Tivo's picture is far superior. But for a second PVR, it's fine.

The artifacts don't happen on live TV, so I think that's not related to display settings. 

The idea of archiving VHS material to disk or DVD-R was hopeless. I ended up buying a $275 Panasonic DMR-ES30VS box with a VHS and DVD-R  that works like a charm for that purpose.

Itunes is still fine for music, though I occasionally fire up Scooby-Doo.

You're absolutely right that MCE could be made better by a guy who writes video drivers. Somehow, the HDMI interface from a Sony DVD player puts up an amazing image with no settings to be made at all. Doing this with the videocard is a trip to mission control.

As a hobbyist product MCE certainly provides something to tinker with.  {Does anyone out there know how to remove 20,000 mis-indexed MP3 files? 

I've seen MCE advertised in Cheryl Crow's living roo. People from the non-geek world who bite on this instead of Tivo or the satellite/cable DVRs are going to be unhappy.

[mlbdude]

All of the music in MCE is actually stored in the local PC's Media Player library.  It is easiest to manage a large collection from there.

Outputting to an HDTV today with an ATI or nVidia should be a nobrainer.  PowerStrip is no longer needed as HDTV resolutions are supported in the latest drivers of either brand.

The normal Tivo outputs 480i natively via a hardware decoder by SVideo.  Sending out that same video progressively through DVI in your PC forces you to first deinterlace and scale it.  This is what causes most of the image degredation.  I would question what decoder and settings you are using since they are important when outputting 480i video out at higher resolutions.  Any artifacts in the recordings themselves will generally come from bad drivers or a miscalibrated tuner card (this is one that that is NOT easy to do) and may require you to edit the registry (though I speak from the Hauppauge side and the ATI may operate very differently).

Overall, with an HDTV you can get the same quality as you get from a Tivo - but you may have to work for it .

[aint skierd]

I feel for the guy.
 It is quite draining emotionally to work toward a goal only to have it elude you, particularly after spending large sums of money to achieve it.

I knew when I started this project that the technology is in its infancy, and there would be problems, yet I could not dispute it's potential, or ignor the siren song that beckoned me.

Compare the telegraph to the cell phone... you have to be a catapillar before you can be a butterfly. Currently, the HTPC  is to its future incarnation, as the crank telephone is to speed dial.
( Although, in the case of Windows, I watched win 3.1 spin its cocoon and emerge as yet another catapillar... perpetually.)...( mistakes were made..)
XP MCE is in it's  larval stage, still the potential is there. It has to start somewhere.  

The truth is that M$ did not release the MCE software to the public because it requires a bit more than the fundamental grasp of computers most of us have. It would have been a nightmare for many users and M$ trying to support it. ( due primarily to the "convergence of the two technologys") OEMs are better equipped to deal with the issues of this technological "convergence".
So any one of us who does an end run around MS efforts to protect us from ourselves, IMHO earn and deserve whatever we manage to find... or step in.

In my case, I have none of the issues that plague this poor soul. I'm happy.( could be happier)
The DVDs play fine, FM works great and sound just as good as a soundtrack.( once I got a decent sound card)
My biggest problem was the display timings. Lucky for me, ATI released an app that allowed me to address the display timings, and spared me the additional education required to wield Powerstrip.
Personally I liked the interface, which armed me with the patience and drive to make it work.
(Read- My God...Ive spent this much? I HAVE to make it work!!)
It can be made to work, that was obvious. It's done by humans. We belong to that club,
and we aint skierd.
BUT we have to realize M$ did not want to sell us this software, so if there is someone to fault... We are forced to confront that man in the mirror.

I suspect, Duke will awaken upon a new day, with a new resolve, and accomplish what he set out to do.

Such is our nature.

[Duke W]

Hey,

As much as I appeciate all your sympathy, this is working OK. It is a perfectly acceptable PVR for the TV attached.
The remote works and the picture & sound are fine. There were no problems playing DVDs.

As you mentioned, it is a no-brainer to attache the HDTV to the ATI, but getting it to display a razor sharp 16:9 image isn't happening, according to ATI's support people. It puts out an OK 4:3 display.  This may have improved, but I haven't checked for a couple of months.

Yeah, I got windows media player to work, but iTunes is excellent, runs on the mac too, and so much nicer in the UI, so why bother?

I archived a few videos onto the machine, but it was serously tedious, couldn't be done with the remote, and wouldn't write to DVD-R. All of that was possible on the same machine outside MCE. A stand alone VHS-DVDR was much better at this than the computer

You're right about MCE being in the larval stage. It's not clear whether it's ever going to be a good solution for people to want to use, as opposed to tinker with, PC video. 

Rampy took up a collection to get me Sage or Beyond TV. Please throw in a few shekels for a new remote control. As near as I can tell, the MSFT MCE remote doesn't work with them.

[g808]

The MS MCE remote will work with BeyondTV. Not sure about SageTV. If you really don't like it with BTV, then give the Firefly a try. It's not cheap, but will definitely work, and work well, since it's made by the same company, Snapstream.

[rampy]

The MS MCE remote will work with BeyondTV. Not sure about SageTV. If you really don't like it with BTV, then give the Firefly a try. It's not cheap, but will definitely work, and work well, since it's made by the same company, Snapstream.

I think they are re-running their buy snapstream get a free firefly promotion (fyi): 

http://www.snapstream.com

I found the article was written in an amusing tone... kinda like Hunter Thompson quasi-geek gonzo style (although I've honestly, ashamedly not read much actual HST).  I restrained myself from editing it to point out where certain things could have maybe been addressed alleviated because I don't think that was the point of the article.

I think misadventures (even if they are somewhat self afflicted) are just as valuable as everything worked out of the box or following these steps HowTo's...  witness my "do not force things in a small form factor case" thread or my fustrations with shopping for an HDTV or whatnot...

Well I think MCE2005 looks nice and was the only way to get a pretty interface in windoze with both HDTV cards and NTSC cards for a while I think the stringent hardware/driver requirements (which are meant to make the install easier/more stable) do more harm than good. 

I haven't installed MCE 2005, but based upon the types of support queries that make it into the forum and my experiences with 3rd party PVR software I'm not sure I agree with mlbdudes contention that sagetv or beyondTV would be worse setup experience for him/anyone. 

I too wondered why the ATI drivers weren't as good at setting the timings via DVI->HDMI ... With the latest drivers for my nvidia card it recognized my LG HDTV and let me just select "720p" or "1080i" lickety split... and then set the underscan/etc...

There's alot to the picture quality equation... especially if you're taking standard definition content and displaying it on an HDTV set.   Obviously artifacts (as was Duke's experience noted above) are less noticeable/annoying on a 480i/SDTV.

I was only half joking about asking duke to try BTV/SageTV, but i'm wondering if he's got the reverse midas touch (j/k duke!)

Duke what PVR cards do you have installed?  I dont' think the article stated explicitely or I missed it.  Other system specs of note?

rampy

[Duke W]

Hi Rampy - Here are the details your're looking for (and thanks for the HST reference)

CPU - AMD 64 Atlon 3000+
Mbo - Asus A8V Deluxe, 1gig memory
Hard drives - WD, Maxtor and Seatgate totalling 800G internal, external USB 2.0 totlaling 750G
Video ATI RX9550-TD256
ATI Theater 550 Pro Tuner  (chosen for audio/video input)
AverMedia UltraTV 1500 MCE
Sony DRU-720A DVDR drive
Sony DVD/CD drive
Soundblaster Audigy 2ZS
Antec Sonata Case with stock PS

If this was perfect, except for the issues with the HTDV picture, I would have kept flaling at ATI and the boards for a while to get it in shape to replace the Tivo in the main system

ATI flat out said it wouldn't work in full screen HDTV, so I believed them.

Beond the the display limits, there were other disappointments. A big part or the "mission" for this box was to archive VHS material (non copy protected), and make DVDs.

I have yet to get MCE to recognze that it has a DVDR, not just a DVD drive. All the regular XP applications seem to be able to do this.  Is anynone out there successfully recording DVDRs with MCE? Was there a secret code?

Sometimes I talk to the guys in the local HiFi Huts, selling this stuff. Win MCE does not seem to be rushing out the door, and often rushes back. 

It did give the collection of random computer parts in my closet a much better home. Its storage capacity as a Tivo replacement is awesome.

When I shut it down I see a number of those suspicious messages from mystery programs. Googling the message shows various forms of malware. It runs antivvirus and spy-bot, which keep coming up with new things to block. Wndows security is sufficiently dicey that it is a poor choice to include in a high availability appliiance.

To put the message in 25 words, MCE is a fine thing to buy if you like messing with computers and don't have a pressing need for all of its allegedl function,s or a need to use it on HDTV. 

I enjoyed building the thing, the process was fun.  i enjoy using it within its limits.

[aint skierd]

By the way, I do get full screen HD on my 65" Toshiba with the ATI.
It could be that it is not THE sharpest, but I couldnt see it... I find myself pausing the PBS programming to marvel at the clairity. There was this simple shot of sunlight sreaming through layers of leaves.. the range of greens must have been in the thousands, and you could follow the viens in the leaves all the way to the edges.
Absolutely stunning.
you did raise a good point in your assesment of MCE... It would seem logical that an OS that has the media abilities added would be more capable than the OS alone, but it seems  the opposite with MCE.
My machine has three tuners in it, that are available under windows with the ATI MMC, but MCE only recognizes two of them. Go figure...

[Rory]

I have to agree with earlier comments - MCE is intended for OEMs, and if you purchased it on your own, built a box, and had a bad experience with it, then...

Well, you can hardly blame MS for that.

It's like Windows Mobile - I have an Audiovox SMT 5600, and it's a great phone. Everything works perfectly. However, I've also seen internal builds of the OS running on phones under test conditions, which is to say it wasn't optimized for the hardware, and it was a very different story.

There's a reason MCE is sold to OEMs and not retail customers. You found it.

[Matt Goyer]

Hey,

Sorry you had so many problems trying to build your own Media Center.

So the reason you can't burn DVDs through the Media Center interface is because you need the Sonic encoders for the Sonic burn engine which is what is used by Media Center to burn DVDs. Unfortunately, the Sonic encoders are only available to OEMs and are not available to system builders.

This is just one of the many reasons (you ran into several others) why Media Center is not available as a standalone OS (unless you go through Newegg).

Matt
Program Manager
Windows Media Center.

[rampy]

It seems kinda silly though, don't you think?  If snapstream, sagetv, meedio, etc can all have commercial/retail 3rd party applications how can the 600 pound gorilla microsoft not be able to get this going?

Sometimes I think their OEM focus is self fullfilling... like there's arbitrary restrictions that are designed to make MCE compatible platform "stable" but end up just getting in the way unnecessarily. i.e. the certified drivers/decoder only using MCE IR transmitters/etc...  *shrug*

rampy

PS Nice to see Matt G on the fourm!  We could use an MCE 2005 expert in the forums if you have the time to come back and visit again 

[warren]

to be able to archive to dvd within mce you need to install the sonic encoders (google: sonicencoders.msi)...another reason why this is an oem product....if you dont know how to use it, dont comment:-)

[elbowgeek]

First off, greetings too one and all from a newly signed-up member.  I came here through Duke's article on setting up his Windows Media Center PC, which peaked my interest as I had the experience of helping set up an MCE system at a wealthy client's home.

His system consisted of an OEM MCE box, built to purpose, which was essentially a PC with massive cooling fins instead of fans.  The house was a brand new development which had CAT 5e running to most rooms, although oddly, the provided only a 4-port switch in the wiring closet.  Anyhoo, he had bought those MCE extender boxes from Linksys which run through the network, to provide A/V services to the rooms that had the biiiig TVs.

So my impression of the system?  Not so awful on the screen which ran directly from the MCE box, but from the "extenders":  Utter crap.

They very often said there was not enough bandwidth on the network to get a good picture, and when you did get a picture it was abysmal, with poorly sync'd sound, and nasty, blocky video.

The software seemed to behave OK though, allowing him to import his CD collection without too much trouble, but then again we didn't try to do anything too fancy with it. 

However, my overall impression of this system is that it's like a lot of modern A/V tech:  Like a dancing elephant, we're not bowled over by how well it dances, but are amazed that it can dance at all.

Then again, I don't watch TV (and rarely watch movies), and listen to only analog music (vinyl, tape, etc.). 

Cheers