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Author Topic: New leader for a HTPC videocard??  (Read 2001 times)
Miller
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« on: January 24, 2008, 10:19:53 AM »

ATI just released their new 3400 and 3600 series of cards. They look like they will deliver all the HD goodness you need for a HTPC without breaking the bank. Reading through this article at missingremote it looks like there will also be a passively cooled version which is just the much better for HTPCs. The best part, all the cards are coming in <$100.

http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2479&Itemid=1
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Miller
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2008, 10:40:53 AM »

Wow, I just finshed reading the article referenced by the missingremote article I posted above. If the slideshow is even close to accurate then I don't know why you couldn't plop a $50 videocard in your HTPC and be able to do anything you needed from a video-playback point-of-view. (I realize the slides were made by AMD so maybe take it with a grain of salt, but I'll be excited/curious to see some non-bias reviews on these new cards.)

Original article:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTQ1MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Slides:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTIwMTA2NjU5N1BaV1FZMlJDR1VfMV8xX2wuanBn
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Miller
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2008, 11:47:25 AM »

Here's an article from Tom's Daily as well.

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35743/135/
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Miller
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 10:00:03 AM »

I wish Sphere would still contribute at this forum. He was full of good info. Anyway, I found this from a post of his over at MissingRemote. It's more details about the 3450.

http://ati.amd.com/products/pdf/ATI_Radeon_HD_3450_Video_Guide.pdf
http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=198&topic=1575.0
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ca n vt
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 06:34:38 PM »

Have there been any benchmark tests of these yet? I'd be interested to see how they do.
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Miller
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 12:39:36 PM »

Not that I've seen. Every benchmark released so far has been by AMD.
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Miller
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »

So here's some links from NewEgg on the new cards. Not much selection yet, but the 3450 does come in at $50.

3450:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102724

3650:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102725

3850:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048+1305520549+106792462+1067933728&name=Radeon+HD+3850

3870:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048+1305520549+106792462+1067933729&name=Radeon+HD+3870
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Miller
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 11:19:55 AM »

I did notice that they are all pci-express 2.0 cards. I'm assuming that you can plug a 2.0 card into a regular pci-express slot and just not get the full performance. Anyone know if this is true or not?
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ca n vt
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2008, 05:48:20 AM »

I don't know I thought that was a different slot altogether. Can you plug an x16 into an x1 and just get lower performance?
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2008, 04:53:38 PM »

A PCI express x16 2.0 card will work in a regular PCI express x16 slot. I have a 8800gt that is 2.0 and it works just fine.  Besides, the increased bandwidth of a 2.0 slot is not utilized.  It is like opening up an 8 lane highway into a 16 lane highway when there is only 6 cars. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2008, 09:38:25 AM »

I thought as long as you only had one slot (weren't trying to do SLI) that 2.0 would be utilized. I thought there weren't enough lanes (as they call the pci express pipes) for 2 pci-express 2.0 slots in the pci-express specifications yet. Not that I'm going with a 2.0 motherboard anyway, I just wanted to make sure my videocard (2.0) would work with my motherboard (1.0).
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 12:01:44 AM »

I pulled this from a review on Tom's Hardware.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/01/23/crossfire_meets_pci_express/page5.html
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Going From PCI Express 1.0a To 2.0

To get right to the point, upgrading from PCI Express 1.x to 2.0 is not worthwhile right now. The current crop of graphics cards just doesn't tax the PCI Express bus enough for a difference to be visible. All test cards, across the board, showed a minor performance boost of 1 to 2 percent, with the HD2900 XT reaching better results despite the fact that it doesn't have a 2.0 interface. This improvement may be caused by the newer chipset or the higher memory speed. Also, a difference of 1 to 3 percent is also slim enough to be considered within the margin of error for testing.

Single-Card Performance - HD3850 OC (256 MB)

PCIe 1.0a x16 vs 2.0 x16                     fps    Percent
HD3850 (256 MB) OC PCIe 1.0a x16    1576.5    100.0
HD3850 (256 MB) OC PCIe 2.0 x16    1612.4    102.3

Single-Card Performance - HD3870 OC (512 MB)

PCIe 1.0a x16 vs 2.0 x16                  fps    Percent
HD3870 (512 MB) OC PCIe 1.0a x16    1795.3    100.0
HD3870 (512 MB) OC PCIe 2.0 x16    1828.6    101.9
Single-Card Performance - HD2900 XT (512 MB)

PCIe 1.0a x16 vs 2.0 x16                   fps    Percent
HD2900 XT (512 MB) PCIe 1.0a x16    1796.8    100.0
HD2900 XT (512 MB) PCIe 2.0 x16    1832.8    102.0

Single-Card Performance - 8800 GT (512 MB)

PCIe 1.0a x16 vs 2.0 x16                  fps    Percent
8800 GT (512 MB) OC PCIe 1.0a x16    2137.9    100.0
8800 GT (512 MB) OC PCIe 2.0 x16    2185.1    102.2

Single-Card Performance - 8800 GTS (512 MB)

PCIe 1.0a x16 vs 2.0 x16                    fps     Percent
8800 GTS (512 MB) OC PCIe 1.0a x16    2235.3    100.0
8800 GTS (512 MB) OC PCIe 2.0 x16    2260.6    101.1

It remains to be seen what the situation will be when newer graphics cards such as the Geforce 9 or the Radeon 4xx0 begin transferring larger amounts of data over the bus. At any rate, the P35 and 975 chipsets are easily sufficient for the current generation of cards.
___
Putting current graphics cards in a PCI Express x4 slot verges on madness, incurring a performance hit of between 25 and 33 percent. Even if the motherboard in question were especially cheap, the card's price/performance ratio is affected immensely. When using an x8 connection, performance also decreases, albeit only by 7 to 8 percent.

Our switch to the X38 chipset for Crossfire tests was overdue. The dual x16 connections improve performance by 6 to 7.7 percent on average, while optimized games such as Call of Duty 4 run nearly 20 percent faster. Looking only at games and resolutions that show a tangible performance boost, we saw an improvement of 12 to 15 percent, on average.

Another thing we saw is that a dual x16 configuration is not as effective for Crossfire as a single x16 slot is for a single card. As mentioned above, a single card loses between 7 and 8 percent performance when operating in an x8 slot. Moving from an x8+x8 setup to an x16+x16 connection also only yielded a 7.7 percent frame rate increase - not the doubling we might have expected based on the single card results.

For now, the move from PCI Express 1.0a to 2.0 does not result in a performance increase with the current crop of graphics cards. Despite the fact that it doesn't feature the PCIe 2.0 interface, ATI's Radeon HD2900 XT gains two percent more performance, as do the HD3850 and HD3870, as well as Nvidia's Geforce 8800 GT. Such a small improvement could have many causes completely unrelated to the new interface, such as the newer chipset, slightly higher system memory frequency, or simply margin of error.

Whether or not upgrading to a P35 or X38 based motherboard is a worthwhile investment for a single-card system is a matter of personal preference. If you're building a new system from the ground up, we would recommend choosing an X38 board with dual x16 connections for a Crossfire setup. Upgrading a Crossfire system from an Intel 975X or P35 chipset to an X38 will only pay off if you play at resolutions of 1920x1200 or higher.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The these Higher end cards we see just a minute increase in performance.
I think some of it has to do with the Memory interface.  Once we see greater interfaces like the GTX's 386 bit then I think we'll see a better performance jump using the 2.0 express slots. But I'm just assuming. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 08:20:55 AM by craigap » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2008, 01:48:52 AM »

Craigap thanks for the post. I really didn't know what the difference was between an X16 card and a 2.0 X16 card. So in essence it should double the bandwidth but none of the current crop of cards really need that? Why are they specifically labeled as such then? Are there all that many mobos with this slot on them yet?
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2008, 08:15:56 AM »

I don' think there are all that many mobo's out right now sporting a 2.0 x16 architecture.  Mostly I think it is a marketing gimmick to sell boards until we see a need for the increased bandwidth.  It also would appear that a lot of the use of this architecture will come into play when screen resolution starts to get higher. The higher the resolution the more memory you need.  The more memory you need (and at higher frequencies) the more bandwidth you need.  I think there is also some other little tweaks in the system of 2.0 that increase communication efficiency other than just increasing the bandwidth.  I haven't done a whole lot of research on the subject, but I believe I read that somewhere.  Mostly I think it is going to be directed at gaming and and all that highend imaging stuff.
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Miller
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2008, 09:34:27 AM »

The X38 chipset from Intel supports pci-express 2.0.
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